Micah and Elizabeth Armstrong
Used with kind permission from Bro Micah
Usually when preaching and talking to sinners and professing Christians about God’s command to repent from sin (Acts 17:30-31) and command to live a holy, sin free obedient life (Hebrews 12:14, 1 Peter 1:15-16, 1 Thessalonians 4:7) they will bring up Romans 7. It is a shame people will use God’s holy Word that commands holiness as an excuse to sin and Romans 7 has been used as one of the biggest excuses.
The purpose of this tract is to show the Apostle Paul was not talking about his experience after he was converted in Romans 7 but is writing about his experience before he was converted. Paul grew up as a religious Jew under Jewish law.
First in Romans 6 Paul makes it abundantly plain the Christian is to be dead to sin and free from sin.
Romans 6:2-How shall we that are DEAD TO SIN LIVE ANY LONGER THEREIN?
Romans 6:6-Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Him that the body of sin might be destroyed, THAT HENCEFORTH WE SHOULD NOT SERVE SIN.
Romans 6:7-For he that is dead is FREED FROM SIN.
Romans 6:11-Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be DEAD INDEED UNTO SIN, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Romans 6:12-LET NOT SIN THEREFORE REIGN IN YOUR MORTAL BODY, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Romans 6:13-NEITHER YIELD YE YOUR MEMBERS AS INSTRUMENTS OF UNRIGHTEOUSNESS UNTO SIN:
Romans 6:14-FOR SIN SHALL NOT HAVE DOMINION OVER YOU: for ye are not under the law but under grace.
Romans 6:15-What then? SHALL WE SIN, BECAUSE WE ARE NOT UNDER THE LAW BUT UNDER GRACE? GOD FORBID.
Romans 6:16-Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey, WHETHER OF SIN UNTO DEATH or of obedience unto righteousness.
Romans 6:17-But God be thanked, that YE WERE THE SERVANTS OF SIN, but have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Romans 6:18-BEING THEN MADE FREE FROM SIN, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Romans 6:22-But now BEING MADE FREE FROM SIN, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end everlasting life.
The whole subject of Romans 6 is once grace has been received the believer is to be dead to sin, free from sin’s power, live in victory over sin, and have dominion over sin.
In Romans 8 Paul makes it abundantly clear the believer who walks in the Spirit will not walk in the flesh and will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh which is sin (Galatians 5:16-25).
Romans 8:1-There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus who WALK NOT AFTER THE FLESH BUT AFTER THE SPIRIT.
Galatians 5:16-This I say then WALK IN THE SPIRIT AND YOU SHALL NOT FULFILL THE LUSTS OF THE FLESH. If we are walking in the Spirit we are not fulfilling the lusts of the flesh.
Romans 8:2-For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has MADE ME FREE FROM THE LAW OF SIN AND DEATH.
For someone to use Romans 7 as an excuse to sin you would have to make Paul contradict everything he wrote in Romans 6 and Romans 8. Either the Bible contradicts itself or people are taking Romans 7 out of context.
After Paul finishes Romans 6 he gives a brief analogy in Romans 7:1-3 of the believer’s relationship to the law and to Jesus Christ. He gives an example of a woman married to an husband. As long as the husband is alive she is married to the husband. She is bound to her husband as long as he lives. However once the husband is dead she is free from being married to her husband. He uses this example to compare the believers relationship with the law and with Christ. Before a person is in Christ they are under the law. Once the person is in Christ they are married to Christ and no longer under the law. In the example the dead husband represents the law, the living husband represents Jesus Christ and the believer is represented by the wife (Romans 7:4).
This example introduces the subject of the remainder of Romans 7. It is the person before Christ and still under the law. This is very clear as the chapter continues.
Romans 7:4-Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to Him who is raised from the dead, that ye should bring forth fruit unto God.
Now the believer is dead to the law and married to Christ. Now that we are married to Christ we are to bring forth fruit unto God. We are to no longer bring forth the “fruit unto death” talked about in the next verse when we were “in the flesh”.
Romans 7:5-For WHEN WE WERE IN THE FLESH, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth FRUIT UNTO DEATH.
Here Paul is clearly talking about his past life in the flesh. Paul makes it clear in Romans 8:8-9-SO THEN THEY THAT ARE IN THE FLESH CANNNOT PLEASE GOD. BUT YE ARE NOT IN THE FLESH, BUT IN THE SPIRIT, IF SO BE THAT THE SPIRIT OF GOD DWELLETH IN YOU.
If someone is born again the Spirit of God dwells in them and they are no longer “in the flesh”.
Paul shows us a contrast of those “in the flesh” who mind or obey the things of the flesh versus those “in the Spirit” who mind or obey the things of the Spirit of God.
Romans 8:5-For THEY THAT ARE AFTER THE FLESH DO MIND THE THINGS OF THE FLESH; but THEY THAT ARE AFTER THE SPIRIT THE THINGS OF THE SPIRIT.
He finishes verse 5 talking about those in the flesh “bring forth fruit unto death”. The wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23) and everyone knows that means eternal separation from God. Romans 8:6-FOR TO BE CARNALLY MINDED IS DEATH but to be spiritually minded is LIFE AND PEACE. Another way of saying someone is in the flesh is they are carnal. They are not governed by the Holy Spirit of God but rather by their senses. They are governed by their bodily appetites and not the Spirit of God. Some try to teach there is such a thing as carnal Christians but not according to the Bible.
Romans 8:7-BECAUSE THE CARNAL MIND IS ENMITY AGAINST GOD FOR IT IS NOT SUBJECT TO THE LAW OF GOD NEITHER INDEED CAN BE. The carnal person is at enmity against God and is not in subjection to God’s law to love Him and his neighbor (Matthew 22:37-40) as the Bible commands.
To be carnally minded is death (Romans 8:6). The wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23). The man in the flesh brought forth fruit unto death (Romans 7:5). The carnal mind is enmity against God (Romans 8:7). So here Paul is not talking about his post conversion experience but rather his pre conversion experience before Christ “in the flesh” and bringing forth “fruit unto death”.
Romans 7:6-BUT NOW WE ARE DELIVERED FROM THE LAW, that BEING DEAD wherein we WERE HELD; that we should SERVE IN NEWNESS OF SPIRIT, AND NOT IN THE OLDNESS OF THE LETTER.
Now Paul is contrasting his present life no longer under the law (Romans 8:2), and dead in trespasses and sins (Ephesians 2:1, Romans 8:6, 13) with his new life in the Spirit (Romans 8:2), walking in the Spirit (Galatians 5:16), and free from sin (Romans 6:18, 22, Romans 8:2).
Romans 8:1-There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus who not after the flesh but after the Spirit.
There is no condemnation only to those who are in Christ Jesus who walk not after the flesh but after the spirit. If you are walking in the Spirit you are not fulfilling the lusts of the flesh.
Romans 8:2-For the LAW OF THE SPIRIT OF LIFE IN CHRIST JESUS HAS MADE ME FREE FROM THE LAW OF SIN AND DEATH.
Romans 7:6-BUT NOW WE ARE DELIVERED FROM THE LAW, that BEING DEAD wherein we WERE HELD; that we should SERVE IN NEWNESS OF SPIRIT, AND NOT IN THE OLDNESS OF THE LETTER.
Paul is talking about the same life in the Spirit in Romans 7:6 that he is talking about in 8:2.
Romans 7:7-What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin but by the law: for I had not known lust except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
If Paul was writing about his post conversion experience then why would he be saying above he did not even know what sin was. How could the great apostle Paul not know what sin was as a mature Christian?
Paul was writing about his preconversion experience as a Jew growing up under Jewish law. If anyone was self righteous enough, disciplined enough, and moral enough to earn salvation through keeping the law it would have been the Apostle Paul. Yet Paul growing up as the Pharisee of Pharisees and touching the righteousness which is of the law blameless (Phillipians 3:5-6) he was convicted of his self centered covetous lifestyle by the law.
Romans 7:8-But sin, taking occasion by the commandment wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
The law was holy, just and good (Romans 7:12) as Paul later points out. The problem is not with the law. It should be obeyed. It shows man his sin, it shows man the holiness of God, and it shows man his need of a Savior. That is the purpose of the law and the subject of Romans 7. You cannot be saved by keeping the law and you need a Savior.
The law showed Paul his sinfulness. Paul seemed to be very moral and righteous but the law exposed his self centered lifestyle.
Romans 7:9-For I was alive without the law once but when the commandment came sin revived and I died.
The law showed Paul his sin. Paul thought he was pleasing God until the law exposed his sin.
Romans 7:10-And the commandment which was ordained to life I found to be unto death.
That which was holy and just and good was the means of showing Paul the religious, moral self righteous Pharisee of Pharisees how far short he fell of God’s standard.
Romans 7:11-For sin taking occasion by the commandment deceived me and by it slew me.
Romans 7:12-Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
As an unconverted Jew Paul does not speak evil of the law. He holds it in high esteem. He reveres it. It is just and good. He does not treat it with disdain as many claim all unsaved people will do. He admitted it should have been obeyed but he had not the grace to obey it with the heart (Romans 6:17), only from an outward, legal standpoint.
Romans 7:13-Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; That sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
Now we come to a very important point. This may be the most important verse in understanding Romans 7.
Romans 7:14-For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Paul now says in the present tense “I am carnal”. To be carnal means you are governed by the senses and not governed by the Spirit of God.
You cannot be free of condemnation if you are not walking in the Spirit (Romans 8:1). You are fulfilling the lusts of the flesh and not walking in the Spirit if you are carnal (Galatians 5:16, Romans 8:2). You cannot even be a child of God unless you are led by the Spirit of God (Romans 8:14).
“I am carnal”. To be carnally minded is death (Romans 8:6) and the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23) which means to be eternally separated from God. The carnal mind (one who is governed by the flesh and not the Spirit of God-Romans 8:5) is enmity against God (Romans 8:7). You cannot be against God and a loving follower of God at the same time. The carnal mind is not in subjection (obedience) to God’s law (Romans 8:7) so one who is carnal does not love God (John 14:15). If you do not love God you are against Him according to the words of Jesus Christ (Matthew 6:24).
Then Paul says in the last part of verse 14 “sold under sin”. How can one be sold under sin and redeemed from sin at the same time? To be redeemed means to be bought back from. Bought back from under the slavery of sin. The New Testament repeatedly makes references to the believer being bought back from sin (1 Corinthians 6:19-20, 7:23, Ephesians 1:7, Colossians 1:14, 1 Peter 1:18-19) and redeemed from sin. You cannot be sold under sin and redeemed from sin at the same time.
Now we have a picture of an unregenerate man, a religious Jew who has strived to please God by keeping the law but realizes he cannot.
Romans 7:15-For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
This is not the testimony of one who has been saved by grace (Ephesians 2:8-9) because “The grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men teaching us that denying ungodliness and worldly lusts we should live soberly, righteously and godly in this present world” (Titus 2:11-12).
The grace that saves from sin does not just give us forgiveness for the penalty of sin but also victory over the power of sin. If there is no victory over the power of sin then there is no forgiveness for the penalty of sin (John 8:32, 34, 36, Romans 6:16, 18, 22). It is the power to keep the law from a right motive from the heart (Romans 6:14-17).
Romans 6:14-For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Grace is power over sin to live a holy, righteous, and godly life.
The Apostle Paul is the author of 1 Thessalonians. In 1 Thessalonians 2:10 Paul says “Ye are witnesses, and God also, how holily and justly and unblameably we behaved ourselves among you that believe”.
Paul says with God as his witness his behavior, lifestyle, and actions before God were holy, just and unblameable. He wrote this under divine inspiration of the Holy Ghost.
Paul was not going around sinning every day in word, thought and deed.
Paul also stated in Acts 24:16-Herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void of offense toward God, and toward men.
Romans 7:16-If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Romans 7:17-Now then it is no more I that do it but sin that dwelleth in me.
Paul is not denying any responsibility here. He is acknowledging that as a person of their own free will continues to give themselves over to self gratification eventually that self gratification takes hold of them and holds them captive and they become a slave to it.
Romans 7:18-For I know that in me (that is in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Romans 7:19-For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Romans 7:20-Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Romans 7:21-I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Although Paul acknowledges the law is good and should be obeyed he is describing the state of the unregenerate man using himself as an example before he was saved. The unregenerate man has repeatedly given himself over to gratify himself (carnal mind) and is now a slave to his selfishness. Often when unregenerate (unsaved) people see God’s holy law they will make an attempt to please God by self reformation and obeying the law outwardly. This is the condition Paul is describing.
Romans 7:22-For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Once again as an unregenerate Jew Paul had a high regard for God’s holy law.
Romans 7:23-But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Romans 7:24-O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death.
Paul realizes despite his best efforts to please God by keeping the law he is still a slave of sin.
John 8:34-Whosoever commiteth sin is the servant of sin.
Matthew 6:24-No man can serve two masters:
Romans 6:16-Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death or of obedience unto righteousness.
If we are committing sin we are serving sin and not Jesus. We cannot serve two masters and regardless of what someone says they are serving the one they obey.
Romans 6:6-Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be destroyed that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Paul cries out for deliverance from the “body of this death” in Romans 7:24 but in Romans 6:6 he shows us the Lord Jesus provided this deliverance and providing freedom from sin.
Romans 7:25-I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
In verse 24 Paul asks who will deliver him and in verse 25 he gives the answer. Jesus Christ the Savior from sinning (Matthew 1:21, John 1:29, Acts 3:26, Galatians 1:4, Titus 2:14, 1 John 3:5).
In the last part of verse 25 Paul summarizes the experience he has been describing in verses 5 and 7-24 before moving into the freedom and deliverance of a Spirit led, Spirit governed lifestyle in Romans 8.
Romans 8:1-THERE IS THEREFORE NOW NO CONDEMNATION TO THEM WHICH ARE IN CHRIST WHO WALK NOT AFTER THE FLESH BUT AFTER THE SPIRIT.
Hello, I have an inquiry about some scripture that you’re using when talking about whether or not Paul is saying he’s sinning or giving an allegorical example of life before salvation in Romans 7. What is your response when Paul says in verse 23 of Chapter 7 that he sees, “another law IN MY MEMBERS, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me to captivity to the law of sin which is IN MY MEMBERS.”-KJV. Also in verse 25: “I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then WITH MY MIND I myself serve the law of God; BUT WITH THE FLESH the law of sin.”-KJV. Both of these, allegory or not, are in a present tense and verse 24 even shows that Paul has already been “set free from this body of death” and THEN we see verse 25 after Paul is set free. Also, in verse 24, Paul says he’s set free from “this body of death” and you say from sinning. So according to these scriptures, can the saved sin even once or is it impossible for a true believer to sin? Please keep in mind that the all caps aren’t me yelling, but me trying to stress certain parts of subject matter. I only wish to have a concise response if you are able. Thank you so much for your time! I can’t wait to here back from you.
A little confused,
Reader
I suggest you go back and read this very well written and thorough article. In short, this is hyperbolic not allegorical when Paul is speaking to his kinsman in the flesh, that is the Jews about him being the chief of sinners.
In response to your point about ‘law in my members’ Paul is telling us that the desires of the flesh are weak, profits nothing, and provides a way where temptations are manifested and then wrongly acted upon when and if we sin.
To your last point, it is impossible to walk in the flesh, when you have put to death the deeds of the flesh which is sin. See Rom 6:1-2 and Rom 8:1-2 for details.
Lastly, I would ask you to help me understand what Peter meant in 1 Pet 3:15-17.
2Pe 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
Go and SIN NO MORE…
Here is the section within the article that deals with your points. Did you read the whole article before you emailed me Curtis? Are you so predisposed to defending sin, that you won’t consider all of God’s Word?
Romans 7:17-Now then it is no more I that do it but sin that dwelleth in me.
Paul is not denying any responsibility here. He is acknowledging that as a person of their own free will continues to give themselves over to self gratification eventually that self gratification takes hold of them and holds them captive and they become a slave to it.
Romans 7:18-For I know that in me (that is in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Romans 7:19-For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Romans 7:20-Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Romans 7:21-I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Although Paul acknowledges the law is good and should be obeyed he is describing the state of the unregenerate man using himself as an example before he was saved. The unregenerate man has repeatedly given himself over to gratify himself (carnal mind) and is now a slave to his selfishness. Often when unregenerate (unsaved) people see God’s holy law they will make an attempt to please God by self reformation and obeying the law outwardly. This is the condition Paul is describing.
Thank you so much for for the response. I read the article and I first addressed what I did for the very purpose that you say Paul is speaking in hyperbole, but there is no indication from the context of the passage that he is. Could you give an example of Paul clarifying this? If so, would that also mean that Christ setting him free from the body of death was hyperbolic?
Also, Paul is speaking to the church in Rome not his Jewish brethren. The whole book is addressed to the Romans, who were not Jews (Romans 1:7). Paul even calls them saints. Why are the saints who are already perfect (without any sin as you say) urged to “not let sin reign in there mortal bodies so that they obey its lusts”(Romans 6:12)?
Also, for 1 Peter 3:15-17; that is the very thing that I’m trying to do is defend the faith. Please do not suppose that I’m trying to defend sin. I agree with Paul in Romans 6:1-2 and Romans 6:15. We as Christians no longer LIVE in sin (verse 2). I have a mind that loves to serve the Lord, but a body that is effected by sin that desires earthly satisfaction Romans 7:25.
In Romans 8:4, we see that the requirement of the Law is fulfilled in those who walk according to the Spirit because they are in Christ. Romans 8:5 says that those who are ACCORDING TO THE SPIRIT set their MINDS on the Spirit. This basically what it’s saying:
We are of the Spirit and walk according the the Spirit (Romans 8:4)
Those according to the Spirit set their mind on the Spirit (Romans 8:5)
We serve God with our mind and serve sin with our flesh (Romans 7:25)
How would you say that this logic is wrong?
If your question earlier was for the section of “sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts” in 1 Peter 3:15, we are encouraged by Peter honor Christ as he is (holy) and speak of Him with reverence when asked abut Him. I beg your pardon, but I don’t entirely know what specific point you are trying to make with that scripture. The bible is clear that we are sanctified by Christ (1 Corinthians 6:11).
Please understand that I’m only trying to understand specifically what you are saying. I don’t mean to sound offensive but am only trying to show the clarity of Scripture. Going back to my original question: can a saved a person sin even once, or is it impossible for a saved person to sin?
If you say that it is impossible for a saved person to sin, then you are making Paul a liar from what is in Scripture (Romans 7:25). If you say that a saved person can sin, then you have to admit that your view is wrong. Who is wrong: God (2 Timothy 3:16) or you?
Please understand again that I don’t mean this as an offense, even though it may seem so, but as an opportunity to know what the scriptures say clearly. It is very important.
If you say that it is impossible for a saved person to sin, then you are making Paul a liar from what is in Scripture (Romans 7:25). If you say that a saved person can sin, then you have to admit that your view is wrong. Who is wrong: God (2 Timothy 3:16) or you?
I have never said it is impossible for a converted person to sin.
A converted person could sin, but should never sin.
Deal with 1 Pet 1:13-18 which I gave you on campus before you go any further. How do you explain this in light of your view?
Here is the definition of hyperbole:
hy·per·bo·le
hīˈpərbəlē/Submit
noun
exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally.
synonyms: exaggeration, overstatement, magnification, embroidery, embellishment, excess, overkill, rhetoric; More
If this is not hyperbole, then Paul is a lunatic according to Rom 6 & Rom 8.
Well, Paul does tell us in 1 Corinthians 4:10 that many would regard the apostles as fools for what they taught. As a matter of fact, the gospel to those who are not saved is foolishness and a stumbling block, but to those who are called, the power and wisdom of God (1 Corinthians 1:23-24).
And also in 2 Peter 3:15-16
“15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.”
I see that Paul’s writings have been twisted the most over the centuries. Do we really expect that Paul, a Pharisee of the Pharisees, more zealous for obedience to the Law of Moses BEFORE his encounter with Jesus on the road to Damascus, is actually “living” that Romans 7 wretched life?
Not only was he a learned and intelligent man, but he spent 15 years after this encounter, serving God with his mind and spirit which resulted in him giving us most of the New Testament. His writings are from someone intimate with God. Not a disobedient wretch.
Even this alone confirms to us that people’s use of Romans 7 as Paul being a “present/rest of his life” wretch is a myth. This is that twisting and destructive teaching we are warned of.
Yes, I can understand your stance from that explanation. However, Paul said that he was a Pharisee of Pharisees before he was saved and THEN his eyes (literally and spiritually) were opened by God (Acts 9:8, Acts 9:17-18). In John 9:39-41, who were the Pharisees but the very ones who said, “we are not blind too, are we?”(verse 40)? Jesus tells them that because they “see”, they will remain blind to the truth (verse 41). If Paul was a Pharisee of Pharisees, then he was also terribly blind to the truth: that justification didn’t come through the law, but only through faith in Christ’s sacrifice (Romans 3:20, Romans 5:1) which he himself later wrote! He knew that he was sinful and needed to trust in what God had accomplished in Christ in order to be saved.
I also had already addressed how you can serve God with your mind and serve sin in the flesh (Romans 7:25). If that’s not enough, there’s also Galatians to show that Paul still has the same Greek “sarx” or flesh as in Romans 7:25 as in Galatians 2:20. The life that Paul is presently living life in is in the flesh-or body-that’s affected by sin, but also BY FAITH in Christ.
Paul never regarded himself as having attained perfection in this life (Philippians 3:12). Even if anyone was perfect, they still ought to desire to grow by looking to Christ (Philippians 3:14-15). That is the hope that I have: to receive Christ’s perfection as my own! We are given His Spirit as a promise and a seal for that day (Ephesians 1:13-14). The Spirit also helps me fight sin (Galatians 5:16).
If anyone says that he is living without sin at all presently, wouldn’t he be living in direct contradiction to Philippians 3:15, which would be in effect sinful?
My reference to Paul being a Pharisee of the Pharisees was not a reference to his current mode of life. It was a reference to the dedication in which Paul followed what he believed. He was zealous for the Law of Moses and followed it with such zeal that nothing external stopped him from doing so. It is simply to reference Paul’s character. He was obedient to what he believed. When Christ changed him, and he went into the “wilderness” for 15 years, I believe he came out of that, not a “bound in sin” and “still sinning in the flesh”. For someone to think that of Paul is to dishonour the man’s character that we know of.
Philippians 3:15
Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you.
How does this relate to the “if anyone says they are without sin they are a liar…”?
Maybe you mean 1 John 1:8? Isn’t that addressed in this article? I checked, it doesn’t appear so.
The Apostle John is speaking against the Gnostic idea of walking in Darkness with the flesh, but still being “in the Light” with our spirit. This dual nature is wrong. That is what the Apostle John is refuting.
It is simple. If we walk in the Light, we have fellowship. If we say we are in the Light, yet walk in Darkness, we lie.
So if we hold this 1 John 1:8 view of it speaking of “presently walking in sin” and we say we don’t, then we contradict ourselves.
If we say we do not sin, we lie.
If we say we are in holiness, yet we sin, we lie.
It’s a contradiction. Read 1 John 1:5-10 a few times with 6-7 being the context that is set for verse 8, and verse 10 will clarify verse 8 for us.
Brad, I apologize if I seemed at all confusing. The reference to Philippians 3:15 is to show that those who are saying they are mature ought to have the mind set of Paul: “Let us have this mindset…” as in Philippians 3:14. If we say that we have reached the goal (Christ) in this life, we aren’t being honest with ourselves. The goal is reached at the end of the race (2 Timothy 4:6-8). Paul is at the end of his life and he knows it.
I want to beg your pardon and say that I don’t think we agree on what it means to “walk in sin” and “to sin.” John doesn’t even say “presently walking in sin” in verse 8, but “if we say we HAVE (greek: echo- to have or possess externally) no sin”(1 John 1:8). “Walking in sin” and “having sin” are different. John addresses walking in sin in 1 John 1:6.
In John 8:43-44, Jesus is addressing Pharisees that lay claim to God being their Father. What Jesus tells them is that they aren’t of the Father because if they were, they would accept Jesus’ words. He tells them that their father is the devil, the father of lies, who from “HIS OWN RESOURCES” speaks lies. The word is “idios” in Greek that means “one’s own” or “belonging to one.” We who are saved all were once children of the father of lies (Ephesians 2:1-3).
If we were once walking “according to the prince of the power of the air,” who is also “the father of lies” who speaks lies because it is from “his own” inherently, wouldn’t we have inherited this natural inclination to sin from our old father? both of those greek words were used to describe sin in us. We all have an external (echo) body that has an affinity (idios) to sin. If we say that we don’t still retain this physically altered body, then we are only deceiving ourselves (1 John 1:8).
Again forgive me if that sounds offensive (because sin is offensive), but please and with all honesty and care: examine your salvation (1 Corinthians 13:5) as to whether or not our experiences pass the test of faith in scriptures. And I DO NOT leave myself excluded from this challenge. We know that if our heart doesn’t condemn us, then we have confidence before God (1 John 3:20-21).
Jesus Christ came to die for our sin so that we could have rest from trying to get rid of it (because we never could). Now since Jesus has graciously done the work, we can now enter into that rest (Hebrews 4) from covering our sin; it’s been covered if we have faith! (Romans 4:7-9). However, we must be careful to know that we have truly entered into that rest (Hebrews 4:11)
I ask sincerely, Brad. Please look up these verses (especially Hebrews 4) and let God’s Word judge our hearts (Hebrews 4:12). Pray about it, as I will be praying for you also and for myself. May God greatly bless you in Christ!
Incredible defender of sin you are Curtis! You even take 1 Cor 13:5 and use it to excuse actual sin in your life. Get it out man. Repent or perish!
According to your view, even if we are sinning by interpreting Scripture wrongly, we can’t lose it so what’s the beef?
Have you checked 2 Cor 13:5 lately? Is Jesus in you? If so, does He sin while you are? He is having fellowship with you while you sin, right?
Curtis, I reject these doctrines that extend from Calvinism. If I could simply “rest” in sin because they are “covered”, I could easily die in sin and be damned. That is how dangerous the doctrine is. No more fighting against ridding oneself of all sin, just resting in Jesus……”knowing” it’s all been “paid” for.
Just as a summary. I reject the doctrine of Imputed Righteousness (Moral Transfer), the foundational doctrine (to the doctrines of disGrace) of Augustinian Original Sin, the doctrine of Penal Substitutionary Atonement and the doctrines of OSAS.
These doctrines are all based on a lie and are all tied together. Your language of describing sin and the Christian walk leads me to believe you hold most of these doctrines.
It’s not a matter of praying for truth about it now, that’s been done and the truth that these doctrines are not Biblical has already been revealed to me.
Personally, though, the test of whether someone is a truth Christian is not so much the doctrine they hold, but the path they walk. Sadly, the doctrines of Calvinism lead many to “rest in sin” rather than “abide in Christ” in these days of complete Apostasy.
I apologize for the typo, gentlemen. I didn’t mean 1 Corinthians 13:5, as you pointed out, John. I meant to type 2 Corinthians 13:5. Although, the love chapter is a beautiful portrayal of the power of love!