I recently had a great conversation with a young man on the doctrine of hell and his unbelief that God would torment people for eternity in fire. He holds to the view of annihilationism. This is basically the view that God will destroy sinners by fire but that would be finite and not everlasting as the Bible teaches. He made an appeal to the many times that the Bible says that God will destroy or bring destruction upon the unbeliever. I agreed with him that there are multitudes of verses, but added that you can not ignore the others that speak of a conscious torment in fire, gnashing of teeth, etc. Here are a few verses from his interpretation:
Pro_15:11 Hell and destruction are before the LORD: how much more then the hearts of the children of men?
Pro_16:18 Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.
Pro_21:15 It is joy to the just to do judgment: but destruction shall be to the workers of iniquity.
Exo_22:20 He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed.
Psa_37:38 But the transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off.
Psa_92:7 When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever:
I immediately referred him to Mark 9:43-37 which is a direct quote from Jesus Christ. Mar 9:43-50 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: 48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt. 50 Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.
Well, in this passage it is referring to sinners who won’t cut sin, which offends God, out of their life. This passage begs the question what is ‘their worm’, and why does Jesus mention it? Firstly, the sinner has ownership of this worm, so by deduction we know that ownership will be eternal as the worm dieth not and are existing with the sinner in the fire.
I then queried him about the passage in Rev 14.
Rev 14:9-11 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
I think he was surprised by my bringing up this passage and had not considered this one. Yet, I was surprised within a few moments he agreed that this group of people that had received the mark of the beast would in fact suffer forever in conscious torment in fire. This tells me that the Bible is the source which he is willing to surrender his ideas to, and adjust accordingly. This is both a good sign and good practice for all believers. I asked him if he thought this would be partiality on God’s part, he replied no. I think he answered that too quickly and didn’t consider the ramifications of God burning these people forever, yet treating other sinners in a differing manner.
One of the most compelling passages about eternal fire and damnation is from Matt 25.
Mat 25:31-46 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: … …44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
This passage clearly points out the eternality of God’s justice, not just that it burns forever, but ‘these’ are in that punishment not just destruction.
Lastly, I pointed out to the young man and he agreed that none of us deserve heaven forever, but we all deserve hell forever. I also shared that it is a temptation to try and make God more ‘loving’ than he has already shown at the bloody cross of Jesus and in His Word which is true forever and ever, and ever, and ever…
He began to respond with the Sheol in the Hebrew argument meaning ‘in the grave’. At this point I believed the Lord was leading me to back off and allow some of the seeds and watering I had already done on this issue to sink in and germinate with him.
Here is a great blog on hell and it’s ramifications. I don’t agree with all the points but it is very good. I think you will be encouraged.
Note: There is no horizon that blocks the end of this very long straight tunnel. But, we can’t visually acquire the end through the law of diminishing perspective. This is known as vanishing point.
by John McGlone
Having studied Geocentricity and the form of the earth for about two years now, I think I am finally at peace about what I am understanding. Here are some earlier blogs I posted on this issue: 1. The Scriptural Foundation of Geocentricity 2. The Flat Earth Controversy. I thought I would begin to document some very important points that bring about a doubt on what has been taught to us by the ‘science’ of this world about Heliocentricity (Orbital Solar System) and the Globe of the Earth. Generally, we are instructed from the very beginnings of our experiences on the Universe, it’s origins, and characteristics. So, in this point paper I would like to discuss the law of linear perspective which has much to say about what and how we are seeing the world and universe around us.
Firstly, I would like to define said law of linear perspective. noun 1. amathematicalsystemforrepresentingthree-dimensionalobjectsand spaceonatwo-dimensionalsurfacebymeansofintersectinglinesthat aredrawnverticallyandhorizontallyandthatradiatefromonepoint(one-pointperspective)twopoints(two-pointperspective)or severalpointsonahorizonlineasperceivedbyaviewerimaginedin anarbitrarilyfixedposition.
Secondly, I’d like to recognize that everything we see with our eyes are mathematically and logically processed by the retina passing into the brain to continue the process of understanding the world we are seeing around us.
Here is an example I’d like to start with on our understanding of the laws of perspective in what is a very real life situation. We will be using the well known, scientific, and mathematically proven formula for the earth’s roundness based on the same ‘scientifically’ proven circumference of the planet of ~25,000 statute miles. That formula is: Distance to Horizon² X 8″/12 = rise/fall of the arc of the horizon.
1.Imagine you are flying a plane at 36,000 feet. An aerial observer can see 232.6 miles in one direction. But, from the cockpit one can observe in opposing directions gaining a total observation of 465.2 miles. For reference, here is an altitude horizon calculator for distance. Horizon Distance Calculator
465² X 8/12 = Feet of Rise and Fall that we should see on the globe. Following the well known curvature formula that is mathematically proven: 465 X 465 X 8/12 = 144,150 feet of total rise and decline of the arc across that 180 degree observation. Keep in mind we are flying at 36,000 feet. Can you imagine seeing such an interesting and different sight? For 90 degrees of the view from left to center we should see an amazing 72,075 feet of rise, then the same fall from center view to the right horizon on our starboard wing. However, since our childhoods we have all been taught that the earth is so large the curvature of the earth is minuscule from what we actually experience in day to day life.
This perplexing mathematical formula which is supposed to help us calculate the curve of the earth, does exactly the opposite when a person employs it without accepting the presupposition of a globe earth to distort their sight.
Now with all the aforesaid information in mind, why don’t we see the curvature that the globe formula demands if it were true? As the below picture does not show, we should see a mountain of water climbing up to over twice the altitude of this plane to a majestic height of 72,075 feet above the median sea level!
A great photo of someone trying to disprove the flatness of the earth, yet helping the cause immensely.
I served 21 years in the U.S. Navy sailing the world’s oceans and looking at that horizon perspective for many tens of thousands of long hours standing watch. I was a lookout, helmsman, and navigator for most all of those years. I never questioned the rotundity of the earth as I had been taught since grade school. I had these ideas reinforced in my navigational training as well. I worked with mostly Mercator projection charts to safely transit the Atlantic, Caribbean, Mediterranean, Indian, Persian, Adriatic, and Pacific oceans and seas. One of the often used arguments that prevented me from believing this flat earth ‘theory’ was the fact that we could watch ships, lighthouses, and landmarks pass over the visual horizon and out of sight. This really does seem to prove the globe model very simply in anyone’s mind. But, the same lines of perspective that causes telephone poles, cars, train tracks and the like to diminish to vanishing point is not roundness, but simple ocular vanishing point. The picture at the top of this blog post is a perfect example of a straight subway train track and tunnel not going over the horizon, but simply vanishing by ocular weakness. Put a telescope to this tunnel or a lighthouse or a ship at vanishing point you will see they did not actually travel over the horizon at all! You can see this demonstrated in these very cool videos:
Objects Over the Curvature of the Earth
More Video Evidence on Curvature Myth
With enough distance everything we see with our naked eye diminishes to vanishing point. This includes sun, moon, stars, etc. that approach our visual horizon and then diminish to ocular non existence. The assumption that the world is spinning and therefore that is why we see the heavenly bodies racing about is just that, an assumption of a theory. ‘Well, what about NASA, ISS, astronauts on the moon, etc?’, you the dear reader may ask. For now could we just stick to what we are seeing with our eyes and minds here in front of us? The same ‘science’ that brought you Darwin evolution, and Big Bang Theory is the same God rejecting, Bible hating philosophies that tell us that Heliocentric Theory and the shape, orbits, spinning, and travels of planet earth are true according to them.
When looking at telephone poles that are diminishing to the horizon, we don’t assume that they are going on the other side of the curve of the globe do we? Here is a great video from Brian Mullins on Perspective.
What do star trails have to do with flat earth? Well again perspective is all we are talking about. Many misunderstandings are created by the fact that most all of us start with the assumption we are living on a globe versus living on a circle as the Bible describes. Now since we see star trails at the equator are diverging from each other, anyone must ask themselves what is causing these opposing whirlpools of diverging lights? Shouldn’t the epicenters be at opposing axis’s? If that is the case how can you see both at the same time? Isn’t this the same effect of seeing the Southern Cross and Polaris at the same time?Don’t the globalists deny anyone can see this phenomenon because of curvature? How is this possible according to the roundness everyone promotes in the ‘scientific’ community?
Here is a great video which gives some great understandings of perspectives in regards to star trails. Flat Earth Star Trails Explained
I have learned over my twenty years of walking with the Lord that the doctrine of
Once Saved Always Saved, also known as OSAS is perhaps one of the spiritually deadliest teaching of devils in Christendom.
When I have ministered on the streets to the drunkards, drug addicts, lazy, lying, stealing, pimping, murdering sinners many of them have grown up in ‘churches’ which have taught them this onerous teaching of Once Saved, Always Saved. These sinners will say things like: a. I accepted Jesus when I was ten and I can’t do anything to lose my salvation. b. You’re a legalist because God doesn’t require us to do anything. c. I know God saved me, stop judging. When asked if Jesus came to set the captives free from sin, without exception they will then plead to, “Everyone sins, even you!” When asked if sin is a choice, they will proclaim, “We’re born this way, God knows that and forgives us anyway.” They make all manner of excuses trying to justify themselves. However, they can not answer this passage with any cogent response.
2 Pet 2:20-22 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit, and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.
When a OSAS believer is challenged to consider other former believers they may have known in their lives. They will respond, “They were never saved in the first place.” I will ask them how that makes any sense even though they personally knew the person experienced forgiveness, experienced a new birth, and experienced good fruits meet for repentance. They will continue to insist they were never ‘saved’ in the first place. We knew of a good Holy Spirit filled open air preacher in Richmond, VA around 2006 who began to doubt his faith. Instead of exhorting him to return to the faith, his Calvinist buddies began to tell him, You must have had a false conversion. He eventually became a very aggressive atheist for the devils work. He even has a YT webpage promoting his anti Christ thinking. Why have we shot our spiritual foot off with false doctrines? What a shame that any believer would cause a man to stumble from faith and into the pit of eternal darkness! I wonder what these verses mean in this situation I have described?
James 5:19-20 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.
Now, I don’t think we are ‘saved’ the way the OSAS believer thinks. I believe the Bible teaches us to seek a new birth. John 3:3-5 We must humble ourselves with broken hearts about our sin and what the Father and Son had to do to accomplish reconciliation with rebellious mankind and not compromise His Holiness. Ps 34:18 , 2 Cor 7:10 Our new life begins when we completely and unconditionally surrender to our Great God and King Jesus Christ. We are pardoned criminals that are here on earth in a period of probation. However, if we continue to seek sin, the world, and the devil’s work we will: 1. Grieve the Holy Spirit away 2. Increasingly harden our hearts as we continue to seek darkness instead of holiness 3. Many even test God so far that He will decide to reprobate us and turn us over to our vile desires that we could never be saved even though we have not physically died yet.
Here are some great videos on the probation of the believer:
Imagine a criminal going to a court before a good judge and being found guilty of assault against a defenseless 93 year old lady. The criminal puts forth a heartfelt apology to her and through tears begs the judge to give him mercy though he deserves none. The judge decides to offer that mercy and puts him on probation for five years with the condition of the original charges being added back to any future crimes. Well, sure enough the forgiven criminal did not take the judge seriously and within a few months was dragged back into court in chains before the same good judge. This time he had mugged an 86 year old man, broken his jaw, and put him into the ICU at the local hospital clinging to life. Do you think the judge was pleased to hear of the criminal’s activity? He was more furious than before that his mercy had been offered and the fool had trampled all over the former ruling. Well, all the former charges and judgments were now brought forth and adjudicated with the new charges. Plus an even stricter ruling was given than the first because the judge was tried by the criminal and found to be good to his word. Do you think God is good to what He has promised and threatened toward His sinning creatures? Do you think that God magically forgets what has gone on before you were forgiven the first time? No dear reader, God has not forgotten. He had remitted the past sin when you were born again and now you need to walk as an obedient servant instead of a rebellious criminal. Rom 3:25-27
I will often hear those holding to OSAS promote this analogy of what father rejects their children for mistakes they make.These folks make some serious category errors: 1. Our earthly fathers are nothing like our heavenly Father. Heb 12:9 2.We are not sons of God but children of the devil if we sin. 1 John 3:8-9 3. We are breaking our relationship with our heavenly Father. 4. Sin is not a mistake but a criminal activity 1 John 3:4
In conclusion, we should connect some dots so to speak from the preceding paragraphs. Firstly, ‘believers’ should never resist correction offered from God’s Word if we are found in contradiction to it. Secondly, The OSAS fruit of, “Never genuinely saved” causes doubts for both the former believers and current believers. Couldn’t people be grafted in again as God’s Word says in Rom 11:19-24? Couldn’t they return to the Lord as He admonishes in the Holy Scripture?
1 Pet 2:24-25 who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness—by whose stripes you were healed. 25 For you were like sheep going astray, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.
This deadly spiritual mistake is to presume that someone was not born again if they fell away from the faith. This would cause what I have coined the ‘Perpetual Insecurity’ of the believer. If you think carefully about it that is exactly what the OSAS doctrine does in a person’s heart. The former believer can not imagine returning if all of that former experience was not real. Because they have been taught they had a false conversion this only cements their spiritual condition against God. The current believer wonders if they are truly saved because they have internalized this false doctrine, secretly wondering if they are actually in the faith themselves. To compound the problem they must come up with more doctrines like sinful saint, imputed righteousness, etc. to assist understanding of the root of the false doctrine which is OSAS. For a good teaching on this CLICK HERE. These doctrines only try to hold together the fur ball that is being theologically choked upon. Why not just confess your sin IF you sin and be forgiven? Why not just seek the Lord, resist the temptations and devils and obey God in the first place? 1 Cor 10:13 Wouldn’t that be the faithful thing to do? Should we be found faithful or faithless before His Holy Throne?
Thirdly, our Great God and King is an impartial judge. He will not overlook your sin because you have washed it away with theological gymnastics. He commands all to be born again of the Holy Spirit, all to walk according to His Holy Spirit, all to abide in Him and produce good fruit, all to endure to the end. These commands make no sense in light of the ideology of Once Saved, Always Saved. Why walk, abide or endure to the end as He both commands and desires? Has God no power in your life to change the way you act, think, talk and walk?
Saints of God, let us be very careful how we deal with each other in this most Holy faith in which we partake. Glory to Jesus!
Heb 12:12-17
Therefore strengthen the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees, 13 and make straight paths for your feet, so that what is lame may not be dislocated, but rather be healed.14 Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord: 15 looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled; 16 lest there be any fornicator or profane person like Esau, who for one morsel of food sold his birthright. 17 For you know that afterward, when he wanted to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought it diligently with tears.
Here is a spiritual tsunami which testifies against OSAS. Please read these verses carefully in context, thank you!
1 Samuel 10:6, 9-10; 1 Samuel 11:6; 1 Samuel 13:13-14; 1 Samuel 15:10-11, 23; 1 Samuel 31:4; 2 Chronicles 15:2; Proverbs 2:13; Isaiah 1:4; Ezekiel 3:20-21; Ezekiel 18:18-31; Ezekiel 33:12-20; Matthew 6:14-15; Matthew 10 (Judas):20; Matthew 18:32-35; Matthew 24:13; Matthew 24:48-51; Matthew 25:1-13; Matthew 25:24-30; Mark 4:16-19; Mark 13:13; Luke 13:23-27; John 6:66; John 8:31; John 15:1-6; John 17:12; Acts 1:24-25; Acts 11:23; Acts 13:43; Acts 14:22; Romans 11:15-24; 1 Corinthians 3:16-17; 1 Corinthians 9:27; 1 Corinthians 10:5-13; 1 Corinthians 15:1-2; Galatians 5:4-9; Galatians 6:7-9; Philippians 1:9,10; Philippians 2:12-13; Philippians 4:1; Colossians 1:21-23; 1 Thessalonians 3:5,8; 1 Thessalonians 4:3-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:3; 1 Timothy 1:5,6; 1 Timothy 1:18-20; 1 Timothy 4:1; 1 Timothy 4:16; 1 Timothy 5:11-12, 15; Timothy 1: 14-15; 2 Timothy 2:3-5, 12, 17-18; 2 Timothy 4:9-10; Hebrews 2:1, 3; Hebrews 3:6, 8-15, 18-19; Hebrews 4:1, 11, 14; Hebrews 6:1, 8, 11-12, 15; Hebrews 10:23, 26-31, 35-39; Hebrews 12:14-15, 25; James 1:13-15; James 5:19-20; 2 Peter 1:9; 2 Peter 2:20-22; 2 Peter 3:17; 1 John 3:15, Jude 20-21; Revelation 2:4-7, 10-11, 17, 25-26; Revelation 3:2-5, 10-12, 16, 19, 21; Revelation 16:15;
Judgment on Individuals
John 3:18 — unbelievers are already condemned
Acts 5:1-11 — judgment on Ananias and Sapphira…
Acts 12:23 — God’s angel smites Herod with a disease for not giving God the glory
Acts 13:10-12 — Paul strikes Elymas Bar Jesus blind for resisting the Gospel
1 Corinthians 11:27-32 — judgment on those who drink the Lord’s table unworthily
2 Thessalonians 1:5-6 — God’s “righteous judgment” on those who persecute believers
Hebrews 10:27-29 — judgment, and fiery indignation of God promised against willful sin
God’s Wrath being shown in this age
Luke 21:23 — God’s wrath to be poured out on Jerusalem in 70 AD
John 3:36 — the wrath of God is presently upon unbelievers
Romans 1:20 — the wrath of God is presently being revealed against ungodliness
Romans 13:4 — governments are God’s minister to execute wrath on evildooers
Ephesians 5:6 — God’s wrath executed upon the disobedient
Colossians 3:6 — God’s wrath executed on the disobedient
1 Thessalonians 2:16 — God’s wrath has come upon those who hinder the Gospel
When we preach in the open air, original sin, sinful nature, and once saved always saved doctrines consistently permeate the crowd no matter where we go or to whom we preach. Sinners seek to justify themselves and others with these false doctrines in the light of holiness preaching. I came across this blogpost of a man who was a Christian born again from the age of 18. He was well studied earning several theological degrees. But, alas he did not persevere to the end, even denying His Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
2 Pet 2:1
But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.
He writes, “One of the difficulties within evangelical theology relates to what happens to infants when they die. Because evangelicals believe in original sin, they believe that infants are born corrupt and sinful.”
Not all evangelicals believe in original sin. Though we do know that most hold to this hideous doctrine. We don’t believe that God makes baby sinners but that they are made in His image. 1 Cor 11:7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man.
We also believe that God makes them perfect and they have not done good or evil.
Ps 139:13-15 For You formed my inward parts; You covered me in my mother’s womb. I will praise You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; Marvelous are Your works, And that my soul knows very well. My frame was not hidden from You, When I was made in secret, And skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
Babies are wonderfully made? If original sin is true, then God would be the very cause of all the lying, murders, rapes, etc in this world. Where is the sin that God puts in, or allows from Adam’s blood to corrupt the child in utero?
Rom 9:11 “for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil,…”
As Christians we must be willing to examine every doctrine or tradition we have been taught in ‘Christendom’ in light of the Holy Spirit teaching us all things from the Holy Bible.
A few rhetorical questions for the reader to ponder:
1. How could a Holy God make everyone sinners without making Himself unholy?
2. How does it make sense that God would create humans in a sinful state which He must eternally destroy on Judgment day?
3. If God stated that He tempts no man, how could he make us sinners from birth without putting a stumbling block before humanity?
4. Wouldn’t Satan desire to propagate such a doctrine that pleases mankind to justify himself in his sin and falsely accuses God throughout this age?
5. Why would Jesus tell people to, “Go and sin no more…” If He created the problem of sin in the first place?
6. Is God double minded that He in His sovereignty creates a problem He must cure with the blood of Jesus?
7. Was Jesus born a sinner? Was He not born in the flesh as we are, yet without sin? If Jesus was not born a sinner, does the Romish doctrine of immaculate conception apply here?
8. If babies are born sinners and the child dies before being born again of the Holy Spirit, do they go to eternal fire?
9. Didn’t Jesus teach that we should become like ‘children’ to enter the Kingdom of God? Why promote that idea if children are just sinners that He made to destroy?
The history of this false doctrine is clear. ‘Saint’ Augustine of Hippo, formally a Manichean gnostic originated this devilish doctrine and Calvin perfected it many centuries later. I think vast multitudes of true believers have fallen for this deception which falsely accuses God and excuses sinners.
